Turning Disappointment into Growth // TOM WRIGHT
What happens to your career when you become more focused on being successful than serving your clients? Sometimes we need to remember that every time we're told no it doesn't mean we're on the wrong path. Sometimes a disappointing result can be the catalyst for enormous opportunity. This episode we're sitting down with UK based portrait and commercial photographer and videographer Tom Wright. Tom is no stranger to success though you may not have heard of him as a prolific voice in the industry. He's been the creative mind in the shadows of some absolutely remarkable work but his perspective and humility have grown him not only a remarkably positive reputation amongst the photography industry, but a loyal customer base that trusts him to solve their problems creatively. Aside from a radical perspective filled with empathy toward his clients and a refreshing approach to success in general what makes Tom Wright's perspective worth a listen is simple. He is no stranger to No but his response to it has been a catalyst to enormous opportunities.
Over the course of the last few years starting really in the height of the Covid-19 pandemic I've had the opportunity to get to know Tom on a personal level as a friend. His photography and videography, usage of lighting, color theory, editing, and even objective perspective towards coaching and mentoring other creatives has permeated into so many areas of my business. It's a huge honor to welcome people like Tom onto this podcast and give the world the opportunity to learn from him on an organic and authentic level. If you'd like to see more of Tom's work simply click over to https://www.bytomw.com/
If you'd like to know more about how to get involved with the Photographic Collective Community where you can find Tom Wright and all of the other guests of this podcast like Jonas Peterson, Alison Conklin, Phil Porto and Jai Long make sure you join us for free at https://photographic-collective.com/ The Photographic Collective podcast is a product of the Photographic Collective ©2022 is produced by Executive Producer Miles Witt Boyer with editing and sound engineering by Jared Mark Fincher. If you've enjoyed this podcast please take time to give us a five star review and subscribe and make sure you check out the newest podcast series in produced by the Photographic Collective hosted by Film Maker Brandon Buccheri CUTTING ON ACTION.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT :
TOM WRIGHT: TURNING DISAPPOINTMENTS INTO GROWTH // PCP37
Miles Witt Boyer 00:00
Hey everybody and welcome to the Photographic Collective Podcast. You guys! My name is Miles Witt Boyer and first let me tell you how excited I am that you have stumbled into this episode. We'll be sitting down today with my good friend Tom Wright all the way over in the UK talking about how we as creatives need to deal with rejection? How important it is that we get good at the idea of getting told no? And then ways that we can keep our heads up. Ways to stay positive and fight through personal insecurities, impostor syndrome, as well as just expanding beyond the niches of our comfort zones.
Hey, but first, it's important to me that story be a centralized part of every piece of my brand, goes [phonetic 00:45] over at Miles Witt Boyer as a wedding photographer story and making myself more efficient has become an integral element to everything that I do.
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Hey, we're kicking right over into the conversation with Tom, I hope you enjoy it. Tom, kick it back up. Like you've literally just said it better than I possibly could.
Tom Wright 01:45
So, recently, it was bidding on probably one of the biggest jobs I've had in my career and got right into the wire, we were literally 3 or 4 days out from the shoot. And I got a message saying that there was not going to be any outside contract white happening on the job anymore. And literally went from having a year's worth of income but coming in from one job to nothing overnight. And it kind of got me thinking about the way that we look at the jobs that we do, because actually my family sat like my business is still solid. The way that we tend to work is by gradually working on smaller projects through the year with people that work on a regular basis and then bidding on these larger projects. And it kind of got us talking a little bit about finding a space with your work where you feel comfortable. And so you're still doing the kind of work that you love. You're still providing and you have the option to reach, but it's not a requirement.
Miles Witt Boyer 02:36
I think that, that's at least for me, I'll tell you, I think it's probably the hardest, the hardest truth to tell yourself as a creative. That like, sometimes the glass ceiling isn't that bad of a thing? I'd say that's like a pretty controversial statement. Maybe because we're just as an industry, but I think just as a culture, we're like success obsessed. Right? But like, sometimes you find yourself in a niche where you just need to kind of sit in it for a little while, like learn the lessons there. What I mean... So you said you just lost this job. I know your reaction is obviously like kind of bummed about it. But what lesson did you walk away learning from that.
Tom Wright 03:29
To be honest, it's many fold that the fact is that I didn't lose it because of my lack of ability for starter which was fantastic. I didn't even necessarily lose it because of like being too expensive or like all the things that I was worried about when I was pitching, those kinds of elements were never a factor in me losing this job. The reason we didn't get it is because it did not actually go right to tender [phonetic 03:49], they used somebody in-house to complete the work that we're going to do. And there was literally nothing I can do about it, they've had some another contractor cause an issue with the job and everything just fell apart.
So as a result of that, it made me wonder like, am I taking enough risks when I'm putting together new bids [phonetic 04:06], am I too worried about my costs being the off-putting factor, when actually what I should really be worried about is just going in and giving it the best I can. And that's not to say that I would never, ever, like decide not to do that. Like I always want to put my best foot forward. But there are so many different factors that we can think are going to be the decision making point. And we can agonize over those things like really stress out about it and really worry about it. When actually the decision that the client makes has nothing to do with what we're worried about. We should stop trying to do a client's thinking for them. Put together a project, put together a bed, put together an approach and let them make the decision what's best for their business.
Miles Witt Boyer 04:43
I think that's a really solid point. I mean, how often do we find ourselves and we've talked about this in this podcast a lot where you kind of... You're standing in your own way, like you're putting words into your clients mouth And I think the probably the struggle or maybe just sort of like the sad reality there is that when you answer questions for your clients that haven't been asked yet, you know, you have no idea what success looks like, and so maybe that's the lesson learned for you there. Or honestly, Tom, maybe it's that you're ready to start bidding for bigger and bigger projects. And this was just sort of like a muscle memory, like a flex to get out of your own way. I don't know, what are your thoughts on that?
Tom Wright 05:38
No, I think you're right, I think there's definitely two elements of it. That's kind of what sparked this conversation, before we hit record, that we were talking about finding a place where you still feel like you can do the work that attracted you to this in the first place. And for me, I know that I never want to be in a position where I'm not operating a camera, we talked about how you end up in direct positions [phonetic 05:58] where you're kind of like a creative director, and you don't actually directly get involved with the work that you do and how that lights some people up because of the possibilities involved. But you're right, I think, trying to find a way of growing the kind of work you can bet on building a team, trying to make sure that you're looking out for these larger opportunities, not allowing those self-limiting beliefs to be something holding you back. Those are all things I'm going to work towards now.
And the fact that I even got considered for this job, I know that we've been a bit kind of furtive, I'm not saying about it, but it's because I literally can't tell you what the client was like, it's part of the conditions of the bid that I can't disclose here was, but basically, it's one of the biggest jobs that could have gotten from a reputation point if you never mind the money. And I think that's definitely something that you can work towards, there are going to be these jobs where you think I could never do that. But the fact is that you can. And again, even if I didn't win the job in this case, the fact that I got as far as I did, like getting ready to pack the bags to go up and turn up a shoe. Those are things that really matter. Those are things that help you to build your confidence for the next job and the next job and the next job. I mean, I know that you do commercial work as well. And that was like when we first started talking, like one of the first conversations that we had was about bidding on a job and going through that process.
And I remember sitting down and talking to you with it. And you kind of having these kinds of same sort of thoughts like you've obviously been navigating your journey as well, that we've gone from miles only doing weddings, and then working in some commercial work to the point where you're bidding on enormous projects, like for those that don't know, you probably wouldn't say this, but I'll say it for you.
Miles just did an enormous project for one of the biggest retailers in America, with one of the biggest camera brands that are in the market. And that's something that most photographers in the wedding industry might not look at, I might not think is possible. But what's that journey been like for you? How have you gotten from the point where you're just solely focused on weddings to kind of widening and winning these projects? How does that feel for you as a business owner, and as a creative?
Miles Witt Boyer 08:00
First off! Nobody is supposed to asked me questions. It's my frickin podcast. But dude... Yeah, I appreciate you even asking. I mean, I'll say it's been a really humbling experience realizing that often I think we put these, like you say, self-limiting beliefs. But I think, at least in my own head, it's much more this, like, over simplified way of thinking. Like, in my mind, I'm like, Oh, I can just take off my wedding hat and put on my commercial hat. And everything will be alright. But the reality is that, as a wedding photographer, or as a baby photographer, or as a commercial photographer, doesn't matter whatever it is, if you become an expert in that thing, then trying or attempting to become an expert in something else takes a lot of the comfort out of your talent. And that took me probably longer than understanding the business didn't take me a real long time. I was like, Okay, well, there's a sort of a different process. And you helped me so much with that just understanding, like, okay, there's different process and how you license your work and how you sell your work. And you know, what contracts look like, but more along the lines of like, you know, my confidence in my talent, as a wedding photographer didn't translate into my confidence and my talent as a commercial photographer. And I had to start over again, and learn things, techniques that I've been... I told you right before we started recording, you know, techniques that it's long past time for me to have learned these things, but I've never needed to and then all of a sudden I need to. And so it's been a whirlwind, if I'm honest with you.
Okay, so, I guess like, talking through this for people that maybe don't understand that we'd like we've got a long history of just sort of like chatter back and forth. What is this? I guess from your perspective, having left the wedding world and really dug into commercial work both still and video? How does the world change when you start doing hybrid work like this? I know that's a whole sidebar, like it's a whole departure. But I've got a way that connects back. But I want to know, because you are perpetually creating two products at once. Right? So what does that look like for you?
Tom Wright 10:31
To be honest, it's so closely related, because we were talking about the areas of your work that you feel comfortable in, and the things that you got into like, I would consider myself a photographer, and not a videographer first, because that's the thing that I enjoy the most. But the fact is, and I'm gonna say this really loud, video is the future. Like, there are going to be lots and lots of situations where you're going to be able to use stills, but there are going to be more, where you can make more of an impact by having something move. And that doesn't mean narrative pieces, that just means motion.
So when I look at video now, there are lots of different ways you can look at it, you can look at it in the way that a wedding filmmaker would and that they need to produce like an accurate account of the ceremony and speeches and then intersperse some beautiful creative pieces. But you can look at it from a brand's point of view where most of them are producing really short form content, like between sort of nine seconds, and one and a half minutes is considered to be like a good size ad for social if you think about reels on Instagram, for example; minute, minute and a half. But the fact is that it takes two completely different head spaces to make it work and work well. And the thing that I'm finding doing this work is that my love is very much still in photography. I love photography more than I love video. And as a result, it takes more effort for me to learn the video stuff. Because it's more technical.
Color Grading is an entire minefield, the camera technology actually does matter. And people will say that it doesn't. But I think they're wrong. I think for video specifically, especially at the kind of prosumer level that most of us play at people using mirrorless cameras, like the Fuji films like Canons or Sony's or Nikons, or whatever else, we're working at a point where every year, every time they update something, it actually does make a difference to the quality of the product you can deliver. And that hasn't been the case for me with photography. Probably since I first got a mirrorless camera, like I picked up.. I think it was a Sony A7 II. And from that point, I've not had an issue where I needed a better camera, like if I bought something new is because I wanted it not because I needed it.
Whereas with video, I feel like the industry is driven much more strongly towards improvement, because the quality that we've had access to before has been so limited. And all of a sudden, we're getting access to things that would previously be the preserve of pretty high end cinema cameras, like in the Canon world, the C 70 does, basically everything that a C 300 Mark 3 would cost at like a third of the price. And those kinds of changes are coming down the line. And the more that that happens, the more likely it will be that your customers will expect you to be able to do both.
And I think that there's three different ways you can go about it and be successful; you can be photo only, and really focus. Be incredible at that, and have something to say. Because again, the technology is getting easier and easier. Having a voice, having something to say is so vital, you can do both, because then you're multidisciplinary, and you can save somebody's time or money and be efficient. Or you can focus solely on video and work. And again, it's very much the same as the photography, look at the quality, gets the cutting edge and make it work. So for those of us in the middle ground, that delivering both the challenges, at least in my case, maybe I can't speak for everybody. But there's this going to be this pull for you to specialize in one or the other. When what you know as your client needs both. And your question is going to be how much we sacrifice the quality of one discipline for the other. And at the moment for me, the majority of my time and attention is being dedicated to building the video practice inside of my hybrid business. And that means you've got to think really carefully about what that does to your voice because we talk a lot about trying to find inspiration or looking for different sources to kind of get your joy. But for me, that's always been photography. But if I want to continue to love my business, I need to focus on video just as much. And just be aware that because I'm doing both there'll be a compromise and the photography may not be as strong but I'm having to split my focus.
Miles Witt Boyer 15:01
And I think that's like the most eloquently said, way to encourage people that if they're not learning a new medium, right now, in 2022, if you are assuming that what you've been doing for the last two or three years is going to be relevant in two or three years... I hate to say this, but I think you're, you're missing the bar, because the industry just keeps speeding up. It just keeps changing and changing and changing. You know what I said this on a private mentor call to you, but you just reminded me of this, I was comparing this the other day, I think you'll like this analogy to the fact that I think most... Let's just use guys because we both fall into that category.
So, most guys want to look like a bodybuilder and move like a marathon runner. Right? We want to just be able to go forever and ever, and run and play and never get out of breath. And you know what hike and do whatever it is that comes in front of us. But we want to have muscle to spare. But the reality is like, you never see bodybuilders run. And you never see marathon runners with massive muscles. And there's a reason for that. And the reason is because both of those demographics of people have committed so completely to their craft, that their body has begun to look to adapt to the challenges of their craft. And when you do both, you create a new version, you create a hybrid of that body type, and so I think that's… Correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's largely what you're saying is like, you can be either a photographer, or a cinematographer. But if you're going to do both, it will likely look a little differently than you think it will, and sort of preparing yourself for the fact that there is going to be not only challenges, but also highs that other people around you may not have experienced, you may be kind of walking in the dark a little bit, and I think that's largely what you're dealing with right now, right? Having lost these big projects that you're like... I can't believe I'm having the opportunities to even bid on this thing. And then you lose it. And you're like, well, who do I talk to about this? Like, you know, what's it feel like to walk in that mud? So how far off am I with that whole analogy?
Tom Wright 17:43
Nothing you are right and actually you reminded me there's a spotlight if you've done if you've heard of it or not, but there's a spot over here called foul running. And the most common place that we've seen it is in the lake districts in the very far north west of the UK. And the Lake District has a huge like range of mountains that kind of goes around all these different lakes and towns. And the intention is that you run up one mountain, and you've run across every mountain on the way around, and then you've dropped down again.
So the idea is that this is a sport that not everybody can compete in, because it requires a lot of things. You have to be durable, because you have to be able to run across uneven terrain at really high speeds and inclement weather, and you need to be light. And those are the only considerations. But these people are incredibly strong, but they don't look strong, they look weak. Because the fact is the physique to do that and to deal with that requires no body fat, and just a muscle, like very specific muscle and tensile strength and durability.
So like when you were saying these things, just thinking like, Yeah, that's exactly what it is like you need to be to really win at something, to do something no one else can do. You have to really hone yourself for that activity. And there are these sports that involve blending different disciplines. Like you said, marathon running is one thing, but being able to do that upper mountain, you're getting into some of the elements that you might get in rock climbing... They're all different disciplines. And I think the frustration they are losing the job. Like I said, it's nothing to do with the talents. It makes you think about how far you can come in one skill set because for me, the revelation was this job, this enormous job that I'm talking about was in video. It wasn't a stills job.
So the fact that I'm building a practice where I feel like I'm a photographer, the market is telling me really loudly that they value the video work that I do. And that's incredible. It's wonderful to see. But it's getting that kind of mind shift sorted out for yourself as well. We talked earlier about finding the clients that you want, and that cannot growing out of the work that you love. So maybe the conversation should shift a little bit and it should be like how do you grow in your appreciation for the work that you're doing. Because in the end, we're professionals, like, I am a professional photographer, I'm a professional videographer, this is my career. And just calling myself a photographer is not helping my business or helping my mindset. So, yes, you're right. You can't always think of yourself as the bodybuilder and the marathon runner. But maybe we need to be comfortable being referred to as either, if somebody doesn't have the skills that we have.
Miles Witt Boyer 20:27
I mean, two times now you've said this sentence though. And I hope people are hearing it, I hope it's hitting them the same way hits me, but two times you've said the sentence that you didn't lose the bid for this job because of talent. And I think that's probably the hardest thing to be objective about yourself, right to step out of yourself, and say, you know, what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to sulk [phonetic 20:54]. Because I see that more often than not. I think you'd probably would agree with that, like, you know, we lose a client that we want, or we lose an opportunity that we want, or we lose a trip that we want. And we immediately think that we're not worthy of it. Right? Like, you get that whole, it wasn't meant to be mentality. But the truth of the matter is, it was likely completely out of your hands, completely out of your control. The fact that you were even asked to have the opportunity to get it, says that your talent is there. And man! That's a lesson like... I'd love to hear you expound on that. Because I think that's a lesson if anybody that's listening to this probably needs to learn. And it falls so in line with your love for talking about everything from impostor syndrome to comparison, and again, creativity beyond all of that. How do you get to a place where you have the emotional maturity to say, I'm upset, but it's not my fault?
Tom Wright 21:58
That's a really good question. I guess it isn't an easy thing to do. But the thing is, I've won bids like this before, and I've done the work like this, maybe not for a client as prestigious, the one I've just lost, but at the same level with the same sort of cash values with the same kind of income expectation, and come away from it and made work that I'm really proud of. The fact is that as you just said, the fact that you were asked to bid on the work means that your work is at the quality of the client was looking for. At that point, they're just trying to make sure they're getting the right kind of value they've got. And in some cases, it could even be that they're trying to prospect and work out whether or not a project is actually worth pursuing.
I mean, for every client that kind of asked me to bid, it's definitely not every single time the project goes ahead. And it's not every time that I win. And very often they pick a photographer or a videographer, and I think, yeah, they're a great fit. And it is a more natural fit. And I keep thinking that if that was the result that they wanted, I wouldn't have delivered that. And it doesn't make my work bad. Like one of the best things about our industry is that we have 1000s and 1000s of incredible photographers, incredible videographers making work that I love looking at. And how conceited would it be for me to think that no, I'm the only person that could do this job. That's not the case. And the fact is that we are one of the number, we're all different, we all operate differently.
And hopefully, we're all leaning into the differences that kind of... We want to kind of work on more often, if you want to be more of something we're leaning into that, because it helps a client make a decision based on not on a commoditized group of photographers that are all the same. We're all different in subtle ways. We're doing the same thing. But we don't have the same approach. We're doing the same thing. But the results aren't the same. We're doing the same thing. But the experience of working with us is different. And I think in the end, the things that soften the blow the thing that makes me feel like oh, it's not that bad. It's okay, it's fine, is that if I have lost the job to another professional, which was not the case here, I'm glad that they got it genuinely, because I'm hoping that they find a better fit for that work. And the fact is, we're not going to starve, my family still going to eat, my business isn't going to go under, there are other jobs out there that will be a better fit for me, my skill set and maybe even the price point, it could even be that you have bid too high. And the client can't afford it. You could have bid too low and the client might think listened and wrong with it. Why is it so cheap?
The fact is that you don't know that at the point of the bid. It's your job to kind of go through this entire process of working out well what's a fair rate for me to charge? What do I need to do this job properly? And if you've put the bid in at that level, and you haven't won, you still win, because it's the wrong job for you. You're not prepared for it. If I'd gone in and undercut for this bed to make it so cheap. They couldn't possibly have said no. I would have hated it because the job is large is the reason the price is high is because there's a lot of work involved, it could involve a team. And if I get rid of a staff member, or I don't bring a piece of kit;
1) I might compromise the quality, and
2) It might make the job, an absolute nightmare for everybody involved.
So when I'm looking at a bit of a rejection, looking at why that happened is helpful, because if it is your fault, you can do something about it. But the fact is, if you've done everything correctly, you've operated your business properly, and you've dealt with the customer in good faith. What more could you do?
Miles Witt Boyer 25:33
Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably the most safe way to put this, right? As if you do the best that you can. If you if you show up each day with sort of the mindset, and I think that's where you're going, really where we're going with this whole podcast right now, is like, going honestly, beyond camera technicians, whether you shoot still or you shoot moving, and starting [phonetic 25:55] to talk more just to creatives in general. And saying like, regardless of your creative outlet, or your professional stance, or whether you're a hobbyist or a full time pro, regardless of all of those things. If you show up on a random Tuesday, as the absolute best version of yourself that you can in that situation, and you end up facing rejection, there's not really room for regret. But the regret comes in the fact that I think most of us end up at least to some level standing in our own way, and we ended up creating roadblocks for ourselves that aren't there or shouldn't be there. And then when we face rejection, we come to the harsh reality that we're the reason that failure happened. And, you know, that's a hard thing to face. Like, that's a hard thing. It's just sort of a hard truth for people, right?
So let's see, aside from that, I mean, the last time that you were on the podcast was with Igor. And we were talking a little bit with him. And Igor just always has the most kind... Like genuinely kind things to say about you. But there was something... There was like a statement that he brought up in that chat that I wanted to at the time expound upon and then we just did what we do, and we chased a random rabbit trail. But he made this comment about working with you, where he said that something to the effect of that, you have no idea how talented you are. That's maybe a common compliment to give someone. But I would say one of the biggest compliments that you that you can give an artist is to say like this is a person who is talented beyond their own recognition.
So I'd love to hear from you. Because, you know, you've clearly got quite the career path ahead of you and behind you. But what does it feel like, genuinely feel like to wake up every day and try and have some level of objective perspective on your ability, and then hear from somebody that you respect and love that you're under shooting that perspective?
Tom Wright 28:29
You want the honest truth?
Miles Witt Boyer 28:30
Yes.
Tom Wright 28:34
So I am a much better judge of other people's work than I am of my own. And I don't think that's true of everybody. There's a difference between introspection, which is the ability to accurately judge yourself and being able to judge somebody else's work. If I'm right, when we first talk to each other, like outside of the context of this, I was running like a positive only critique, because I'm really good at assessing somebody's intent when I wasn't aware of how it was made. And the issue that I have is that, that isn't easy when you involve your emotions in it.
So if you have self-limiting beliefs outside of photography, there's a very good chance it'll spill over. If you believe that you're not valuable, or you've been told that in the past, there are other things they can kind of come into it. And it does make you feel like you aren't good enough. And it is a curse. But if you look at it the right way, it can be a strength, because the fact is, if I'm not sat there resting on my laurels, thinking I'm great, there are two sides to it. There's one, I'm going to have to work harder to sell myself because I need to convince myself that I am different and unique. Outside of the work, I need to be able to articulate that which is a challenge genuinely, because for me, the way that I overcome my imposter syndrome is by focusing on what I can do for somebody else.
So having a knowledge of myself isn't involved in that process at all and to be honest, it probably should be more than it is, I should be able to talk about myself in a positive way more than I do. But the other element of it is that if you do good work, and you are honest and personable, hopefully, you will have the kind of experience that we just talked about. You just said to me that Igor said those things about me, I have never, and probably will never say them about myself. And that isn't because I believe that I'm a terrible photographer, or that my work is not good enough. It's because I'm too close to it. And I know what I make, and I know how I find it to make. And very often somebody can look at something that I think is not very good. And think it's fantastic. And they're right, like I am right as well. Because the fact is, I'm striving for something that isn't quite where the product that are delivered is, I want something that's like 20%... Further, it's like, I don't know if you heard it or not, but there's like a huge thing [unintelligible 31:00] Like when you start out, you don't have skill, you've got taste. And you can't make anything yet you haven't learned. But you know what good looks like. And sometimes, the thing that I want my work to look like, is better than it turns out.
Now, that doesn't mean it's not good photography, like I said, because sometimes it's things that are outside of your control. So recently, I photographed a Paralympic athlete, I didn't know I was going to be doing this. And the shoot was scheduled for 1pm on the warmest day of the year with no cloud cover, in an arena on a horse. So I turn it to shoot without any preparation for this not knowing that we're going to be my subject, not knowing what the circumstances were. And in my head, I could have hit this level, I could have taken it to like 100%, it could have been the best image in my portfolio, it could have been elevated because of who was in the photograph. But in actual fact, I wasn't given the circumstances to be able to make something that stellar. Now I made a great photograph, something I'm very proud of and the client absolutely loved. And not only that the athlete loved. But the point is in your head, sometimes you can look at what's in front of you and think I should have made better, even though you know full well, that the circumstances you put it wouldn't allow it.
So roundabout way to answer that. But if you do good work, other people will speak highly of you. And I think if you invest in the right people, they can do a lot for you in terms of making it known your skill level. So you do not have to talk about yourself. But if you're asking me whether or not it's easy to continue, when you don't have an absolute belief in your own work, it absolutely isn't.
To the point where that's probably the thing I have to work on the most. My mindset is the number one thing I have to work out more than my technical ability, more than the equipment that I'm using, more than the prospects of clients coming up. I work on my mindset more than anything else, because it's the thing that needs the most effort at the moment to get me to that next level.
Miles Witt Boyer 33:10
Interrupting this episode briefly to talk through one of the most obnoxious parts about our industry. You guys as we talk about dealing with rejection sometimes I'm reminded of all the years that I spent being inefficient with my business and how many clients said no to me simply because I wasn't organized.
You guys entering honey book into my client workflow was probably the most pivotal element of changing who I am as a business and what I could offer my clients and honey book is offering a great discount actually up to 20% off your first year. If you just use my referral link, you'll need to DM me on Instagram @mileswittboyer for requested that link, I look forward to hearing from you.
I've worked with a number of creatives that they walk into any scenario, every scenario, and their immediate reaction is, this isn't as good as I wanted it to be. And they start, they lean in right off the bat by picking apart all the things that are wrong with the situation that they're in. So if the light was better, if the situation was better, if the subject was better, if my camera was better, and there's a perpetual lack of objectivity. And so basically they excuse subpar work which is sometimes by the way the best work they've ever put out but they excuse it by outsourcing the problem. And I'd love to hear, it sounds like to me though it sounds like you that's not a problem that you have, that you walk into a situation and say like alright, let's just make the best of it.
So, in the theme of positivity, which is pretty much always where our chats end up going. How do you get that mindset? And like, how can you encourage other people to find that mindset of walking into a scenario and grabbing that silver lining, and holding on pretty tight.
Tom Wright 35:11
Somebody said to me once that growth is uncomfortable, and I think that's probably the best way of putting it, like the situations where you were having to work it out as you go. Like, it's never gonna be as good as something that's practiced and polished, because the fact is you've practiced that. Muhammad Ali's quote is;
"We train hard to fight easy."
So the things that you do regularly, you're going to find easier. But there are situations you can find yourself in that you would never voluntarily choose to be in. And if you can make those work, you're developing a level of skill that you would never even have approached, that you mentioned this earlier today, you were saying that you worked harder on your writing technique, because you were stretched by a commercial project, like the result had to be higher than you would normally work out with the kind of lighting [phonetic 36:01] that you were using.
So you've learned and you did it, and it took you longer than it might have done to do what you'd normally do. And you can do reflexively, it probably felt exhausting compared to what you'd normally done. But the fact is that you did the work, the work hit the standard, you met the criteria. But it wasn't easy. But the fact is that we are professional photographers, it's not always going to be easy. You're going to be put in situations where the client wants something and doesn't understand the challenges to articulate to them to you beforehand. There are going to be things that fall outside of your normal remit. If your wedding planner sets portraits for noon, guess what you're shooting at noon. That's it. And there are always going to be situations where you can take all the advice of I don't do, I don't shoot at noon. Well, fine. I get it, what you're trying to tell somebody is like put yourself in a situation where you have enough control to make that the exception when you would have to do that.
But the fact is, if that is the only option or you don't deliver any bridal portraits, what are you going to do? Yeah, you're going to do the work.
Miles Witt Boyer 37:12
You're going to be the professional.
Tom Wright 37:19
But then how often do you learn something?
Miles Witt Boyer 37:17
Precisely.
Tom Wright 37:18
You'd be the professional. But how often does that result in doing something differently, like you can't approach it the way that it was everything else you ever did. So you might do something like sidelight or backlight your subject without bringing the brightness up, you might try and silhouette somebody, you might do things that wouldn't normally fall within your remit. And have to say, doing jobs like that the exact circumstances that I was in and described earlier, noon in full sun on a horse, I still made images I'm proud of, but the way you do it is by working the problem. Like what's the issue? Well, the sun's too high. Cool. Is there any open shade at all? No. How do we make full sun look incredible? And you learn. Because if you don't want to do that work, you're never going to grow. And you should always endeavor to make that something you don't do on a job. You should try and practice these things ahead of time. But if you are stuck in a situation where it is slightly outside your comfort zone stretch, you're more resilient than you think you are.
Miles Witt Boyer 38:19
Oh man! I have a story I think that you're going to love that goes right in line with us. So a couple of years ago, before you and I really knew each other Tom, I suffered an incredible leg injury, massive knee injury. And basically like I'll go as far as to explain it like this, it was not only a spiral fracture, but I also ruptured every ligament in my knee at the same time. And I had an orthopedist that I love and respect. I mean, a very talented doctor that had done other reconstructive surgeries on me, look at me right in the eye and say, "You'll never run again." And he said, "We're going to fix it up. We could do more if you were older", which is like an ironic thing to hear. But you know, insurance wouldn't cover a replacement at my age. So he's like, "We're going to fix it up. But you'll never run again."
Okay, so we make it through the surgery. I have sort of a mindset of that. And I come to terms with it. You know, at the time like a 33 year old dad of two boys, and I'll never chase them again, not really. And on the back end of surgery, I start rehab. And their mentality was we have to push you through the pain, like growth can be painful, and it's going to have to hurt. You've just got to do it. And you know sometimes you just got to grit your teeth and bear it. And here's where I'm going with this. Sometimes that mindset is really powerful for people.
For some people, that mindset, that concept of, like, if something is uncomfortable, bite your lip, get through it, you'll be better for it on the other side. But here's the problem that I ran into was those people that were encouraging me to fight through the pain also didn't believe that there would be that much growth on the other end of it. They didn't think I would run again either. And I ended up meeting a guy who's a close friend of mine. And he actually was a groom that I shot in Iceland a few years ago. And he sat and looked at me, he said, probably one of those pivotal statements in my lifetime. But he said, "Hey, anything that you do in repetition you get good at."
So as a photographer, every single time that you raise the camera up at Golden Hour, you get better at shooting a golden hour, right? And every time that you make the Cognizant decision to not shoot at noon, because you're afraid of it, you get better at making that decision. And his point was, every time that you jump, you train your body to jump higher. And every time you run, you train your body to run harder or faster or longer. And every time you hurt, you train your body to become more comfortable with pain. And he said, what you need right now in your life is not to bite your lip and fight through the pain. What you need is to give yourself permission to work as hard as you can up to that edge of pain. And then start to give yourself the grace to push that threshold just a little bit at a time.
And, Tom, here's the fun thing, Dude, I got to say this. I've run almost 2000 miles since then. But he was with me. He was standing right next to me on my first steps, like my very first steps when he said, "What do you want in life right now?" And I said, "Man! I just want to run with my kids." And he said, "All right, take off." And I took about 3 or 4 steps. I literally fell over in the gym. I'm not kidding. And he said How you feeling? And I said it doesn't hurt as bad as I thought it would, he goes good. We're done for today. I'll see you tomorrow. And, you know, sometimes I think we need to learn those lessons of like, most of us love this mentality, this Rocky Balboa mentality of like, you know, sometimes you just need to get punched, and then just get punched again, and then just get punched again. But man! You know what I think a lot of us need to hear, sometimes we just need to give ourselves space to just be kind to ourselves, and push our uncomfort. And then tomorrow, show up and push our uncomfort a little bit more and try something new, and assume that it's going to be uncomfortable, but not push into the pain.
Tom Wright 42:48
That's a really good point. I like the.. It's growing capability. It's like... I am not a gym person, as you've probably guessed for my general physique. But I have friends that love going to the gym. And the reason they love it is because it's consistently a way that they can push themselves right to the edge of the capability again, and again and again. And it's the first thing that experienced that. And for me, that was photography, like I felt like every time I picked up a camera, it was like a way of kind of learning something new and seeing a little bit differently. And I think one of the issues we get being professionals that tend to like get set in a kind of work that the prevailing advice, and rightly so is to niche down, do one thing, just kill out and be the best at it. But that doesn't really encourage you to kind of broaden your ability. And it doesn't always require that you push yourself. Like there are definitely people that still push themselves beyond every single time. But if you're anything like me, you find a way of working in 95% of the situations you're in that you're not only comfortable with, but feel like a reflex. But reflexive action is not thoughtful. That's the entire point.
The reason it's useful is because it's quick and it doesn't take effort or energy to to kind of perform. It's just happens. You're on autopilot. And you're still being creative, you're in a flow state things are just working. But the fact is that the only reason you can do that is because again, you've already been through this process of stretching your limits and stretching your limits and stretching your limits. And there's something to be said for putting yourself in positions where you're working on that bleeding edge of that last 1% of capacity that you've just got. And I feel like that's the thing that's in the last kind of year for me, they said this before, these bigger jobs are a chance to stretch yourself because they're making you work on things that you wouldn't work on. They're making you build teams, which is something I've never had to do prior to kind of moving into commercial and being freelance like I've never needed to. But these are all capabilities that you can grow.
I am capable now of hiring people. Even though the job didn't go ahead. I'm capable of sourcing equipment required to shoot an enormous project with very little notice, because I've done it now. Like, I know how to do these things. And the fact is that whether or not the job went ahead is irrelevant because those management skills come in. And now I'm looking at equipment and thinking, you mentioned this earlier, do you want to be a hybrid, and we had a conversation prior about technology and we can come back to that later on or not [phonetic 45:20] at all. But I really think there's room to kind of work more in the convergence of disciplines. I think there's room for there to be like motion rather than stills and video.
I think there's room for there to be something that kind of incorporates elements of both and we're getting to a stage now where with careful planning technology is at a stage where you can get a quality similar to stills from video and I think there's something to work out there and even having a conversation with you about like where I feel comfortable. And where I feel uncomfortable is now highlighted something for me that I can work on. I can go away and try and make my video look that little bit closer to the stills that I love.
Miles Witt Boyer 46:01
Yeah, Tom Wright Motionographer, I think that's [unintelligible 46:11] Okay, dude.
Tom Wright 46:10
[Crosstalk 46:11]
Miles Witt Boyer 46:13
So I want to hear that.[crosstalk]. So we try and do this in every episode. And sometimes it doesn't always come up. Or sometimes, you know, people have a hard time just sort of ad-libbing this [phonetic 46:24]. I think it's important for me to always point out though, that like I never prepare the guests on this podcast for these questions. That's goes counter to this whole idea of just having like an authentic conversation. But I think you've given both me and anybody that listens to this, like a lot of perspective on what's important to you, and the decisions that you're making, the lessons that you're learning. What some honest advice, though, like, for people that are maybe not quite as self-aware, or frankly, are just more insecure about ways that they can pursue growth in things that are scary that they can do hard things, and stretch comfort levels into new areas of genres that they haven't played in, or new techniques that they haven't played in. How do you encourage people to just push those boundaries?
Tom Wright 47:26
I think it depends on the person. I'm not... That isn't meant to be cop out, I genuinely feel like different people learn in different ways. So for me, I take a long time to prepare for things, like I'm the kind of person that will try and learn everything I can about a subject to get a full understanding. And then, like the doing of the thing is more like confirmation that my theory was right like that I understood it, and then take it ahead that way. And that can be quite comfortable. But the issue is that if left to my own devices, I'll stay learning forever and never apply. So for me, the way to get me to do that is to give me a kick, say like, no do it now. Go make it, do the thing. You can do this and the encouragement to say that, no, you're capable because of all this people don't know this, go do it, go play it. For me, that's perfect.
So for anybody that's like me, and it's a bit of a theorizer and the kind of person that kind of needs to know everything. You're never going to know everything. So go do it. That project that you're thinking about making right now go out and make it. And I'm not saying do the whole thing. One thing, take the first step, do that. And if you don't like it, change the project. But the fact is that you won't know unless you start. So start.
If you're the kind of person that's too busy doing things to take stock, stop for a minute, look at why you're doing the things you're doing and how you're going about making the work you are. If you're always making the same decisions, when you're making a product or a project or working with the camera, stop. Ask yourself why. And if it's correct, and you still love it and you don't want to change anything cool carry on. But there's a good chance that you might be missing something by not stopping and having a look at what you're doing. So if you're the kind of person that runs headlong into things, keep running. But make sure you give yourself time to take a breather and take stock of what you've got with you and the way you go in. Because you don't want to end up lost because you were too busy running down the wrong path.
Miles Witt Boyer 49:20
That's like perfectly said... I mean, I wanted to say this here's the funny thing. You ready for this time. Prepare your heart. I've wanted to say this to you for 6 months now or maybe close to a year. But you just brought it up where sometimes you just need people to kick you off the cliff in order to know that like those wings are ready, right? So when do you start your podcast?
Tom Wright 49:46
My wife asked me that yesterday. So, I guess that you've just challenged me now I've got no other option. I am building an education platform mainly for people that struggle with the theory side of the photography or the kind of the practical things that allow them to run fast, because I'm good at the practical stuff that allows people to run fast. But I also really miss having conversations with creatives. And I feel like coaching is really important to me. And over the last six months, it's something to be doing more and more frequently like this last week, in the space that would have been occupied by this job that we've been talking about. I've talked to one photographer about licensing and negotiating for better terms and a contract they're about to sign. I've talked to another one about how to develop Super 8 film and how to scan it properly and what color grading it looks like and what's involved in that. We've been talking deeply about convergence of technologies, because these are things that fascinate me. And I really want to talk to more people about it. So if anybody wants to speak to me about any of those things, I'm in the group on Facebook, drop me a DM on Instagram @bytomw. Happy to talk. More than happy to record a chat with you if you want to talk. I have no plans. But if I've got conversations, I've got stuff I can post then I'll be putting it out.
Miles Witt Boyer 51:09
I mean, the only reason I bring that up is because I know very few people. And there's a funny thing that kind of put you on blast, I kind of wanted to see your reaction, but I know very few people in my life. And I'm pretty connected in the photographic community, right? The group that you mentioned, obviously, and anybody that's listening, that doesn't know that this podcast serves essentially as an educational extension of a Facebook community that you can find Tom in as well as me and a number of other pretty well known photographers and videographers. But I know very few people that are as self-aware as you are. And, you know, I would be remiss to not give you credit and the fact that that takes a lot of work to get there. But I also... Man! Whatever you release, whatever educational platform you release, I can say this bluntly and in public, Sign me up!! Because man! I'm just such a believer in the way that you see the world and the way that you see our industry and the positive spin that you're able to take on just how important just a little bit of growth can be. So where are you....? By the way, I probably need to go ahead and say this just so that we make it blunt. By the end of today, Tom, he doesn't... This is happening live as well. He doesn't know this. Tom will be our newest... Over in the Facebook group, he'll be our newest group expert. I'm shifting you into yes, dude! Welcome to a leadership role you didn't ask for.
Tom Wright 53:02
I mean, I feel fun. So I'm not going to lie, this is great.
Miles Witt Boyer 53:05
But the reason for that, frankly, is because I feel like there is nobody in the group. And that is the stipulation for us doing group experts, is like I want somebody in the group that can speak to something that nobody else can speak to with as much authority. So when that person pops up, when Derrick [phonetic 53:26] pops up and talks about SEO, people stop and listen, right? When Jason Vinson top pops up and talks about off camera flash people stop and listen. But, Tom, I don't know anybody that can speak to mindset and just growth in the way that you can. So I'm really excited to be able to offer you that role. But tell us about what comes next for you. Because, you know, it sounds as though you're in a place where you're ready to just sort of jump into what the next project. So, where are you headed professionally right now?
Tom Wright 54:00
So it's going to go one of two ways. Let's say one or two ways... Probably both of two ways. Like I'm trying to build my photography video practice into something that's more full service for customers, I want to be able to teach people about visual identity and branding, when they're small to medium businesses, and not just for big companies. And specifically, I want to work with more creators and people that make artwork, artists, illustrators, photographers, anybody like that. Because I feel like we spend too much time talking about the thing that we've made, and don't let people in on the practice of making it. I feel that we look at ourselves as a product and not a service. And especially when people refer to themselves as service providers or artists, the making of the thing that you do is just as important as the final result. I don't want to work more on that.
From the other side of it, the other hand, I want to be working more on education, and that's where I started out, like, I started out my career as an educator, and I want to get back to doing that more fully, I've offered mentoring throughout. But more recently, I've really started to love working with people in process.
So, for me, it's those two things. It's showing people the art in what you make, and helping you to make better things.
Miles Witt Boyer 55:22
Yes, like I said, Sign me up. This is exciting stuff, that's coming up for you. And, man, it's just a big deal for me to continue to have you on here periodically, so that we can kind of celebrate those things together. I think that's something that's largely missing in our community. And you'll see me periodically over on the Facebook group, where I'll say, let's celebrate the wins, like, what has gone right in your life this week that you're embarrassed to celebrate publicly. Because we all love to pretend. And I mean that sincerely, that humility is a part of our brand. And in reality, I think most of us confuse humility for insecurity, and said, Dude, I am such a big believer in the fact that you're a perfect example of somebody who can be truly humble, but also quite confident. And so man, I'm just excited to see all that happen for you.
Tom Wright 56:23
You and me both, I'm excited to kind of work on it. Especially with the kind of education side of things because it will be new when I formalize it, so when this is all kind of finished, that will be the first time I've packaged it up as something you can buy in like 10 years. With the practice side of it, the thing where I'm helping people and like making the work. I've been doing that throughout and will continue to do that for as long as I can. I hope to never, not have a camera in my hand. But yes, I'm really excited about the education platform because it's something new and something valuable, I think.
Miles Witt Boyer 57:01
It's special. Okay, well so guys, I've tried this whole season to commit to everybody that we're going to try and keep these episodes under an hour. Because we just kept stretching them longer and longer with more and more conversation this last season. But here we are at 58 minutes Tom, which means you have about two minutes to sign off.
Dude, is there anything that we didn't cover today that you think we should chat through?
Tom Wright 57:27
Nothing that we could fit in 2 minutes for definite and I'm really glad that we had the chat and again, thanks for having me Miles, like, it's a pleasure to be on. It was great being on with Igor and even nicer to be here again, like I'm not saying that, that came out wrong. Maybe cut that too?
Miles Witt Boyer 57:41
No, I think I'm not going to cut that at all. Listen, Igor is a good friend of both of ours, but I said this to him I started recording. It's nice for me to see you in quite literally in the hot seat. Because, you know, a guy like Igor or a guy like Jonas or a guy... I know you mentioned earlier on the Facebook group that it's an honor to be tagged my next call is with Jai Long, these guys demand a lot of attention but I think it's valuable to say for people to hear that you know, dude it's the Tom Wrights of the world that are keeping us in the right lane, in the right mindset headed the right direction, and man, I'm just... Honestly, I'm honored to have had you on here. It means a lot to me.
Tom Wright 58:33
Thanks for having me. Absolutely loved it. Thanks Miles, you making me blush although you can't see on the camera.
Miles Witt Boyer 58:38
Yes, convenient that your camera dies when I make you blush. All right, man!
Hey Everybody! Again, this is the photographic collective podcast this is we're halfway through Season 3 now. Miles Witt Boyer and a guest Tom Wright today, y'all. Thank you so much for taking an hour of your life to sit and just soak up a little bit of knowledge. And if you haven't already joined us over in the Photographic Collective Community on Facebook, please find the link below in the show notes directly into the brand new Photographic Collective website which is pretty exciting. There's a link below into the educational website, it will allow you to sign up as a member for free and it'll take you right into the community so that you can join us and be a part of the conversation over there. And guys, we will see you again next time.
If you love this episode, please be sure to give us a 5 star review over on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to us each and every week.
Y'all just a quick reminder, this episode was brought to you by our friends over at Narrative and whether you're in the hunt for a calling software that saves you time and makes you more efficient or you need SEO help on your blogging and storytelling. Narrative has solutions for you just use the code Miles and receive yourself a massive discount. Again, that's narrative.so. We'll see you next week.
